Coilover Discussion

"ihm96" (ihm96) 12/18/2018 at 19:57 • Filed to: None

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Pic for your time

So last week I did an overhaul of my Z3s front suspension with all new control arms, tie rods, sway bar links, and some oem+ poly control arm bushings that have a little more track. The car currently has bilstein lowering springs I believe and ever since ive owned it has kinda always had a little too much camber.

The question is, do I go all out and buy coilovers, which then means I need to get some sort of rear camber adjustment along with camber plates for the front. Or do I just get a set of OEM springs?

I’m thinking I should go with KW V1 coilovers but I want some oppoinions. Do you guys run or have run coilovers and did you find it livable? What brand should I go with that wont be too harsh and will perform well. I dont have a crazy budget but I definitely think I want to stay away from any coilover kits below 1,000 dollars.

What are your thoughts oppo?

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > ihm96 12/19/2018 at 09:15

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I’m in the middle of making the same decision with my E90 M3. Go with OEM EDC replacements, or for about the same money (I think), g o with Ohlins R&T? (I’ve determined that KW Clubsports will be just too harsh for me.)

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > ihm96 12/19/2018 at 18:35

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How well would just some mildly stiffer springs and then big sway bars work for your car? I know on my Miata, I was WAYYYY more impressed by the difference that an upgraded front sway bar made than the coilovers. Sure the coilovers were signficantly better than the stock springs but not enough to justify the harsher ride. Since I have ended up autocrossing and tracking that car to hell, it was worth it. But for a car that is going to see more street use than anything else, I wouldnt recommend coils. My next Miata will certainly have coilovers again but that’s because I am glad to make my body suffer for the sake of enjoyment.

gettingoldercarguy > ihm96 12/19/2018 at 18:40

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It’s all in the valving and making sure you don’t go down the path of all the spring rates. I have O hlins R &T on my Subaru and thet ride  better than stock. KW v3 is nice from what I’ve heard.

Textured Soy Protein > ihm96 12/19/2018 at 18:43

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Unless you want/need the adjustable ride height, a good set of shocks and springs will be a nice performance improvement and more in your budget.

You can choose between H&R Sport or Eibach Pro Kit springs, and Koni Sport or Bilstein B8 shocks. The Eibach springs are a little less low and less stiff than H&R. The Bilstein shocks are fixed damping with internal bump stops and shortened for use with lowering springs. The Koni shocks are adjustable damping and not shortened but can work with lowering springs.

For the most simple, streetable setup, I’d go with the Bilstein shocks and Eibach springs. And you can get them in a kit together as Bilstein part # 46-189516 . The cheapest price I found it for is $710 at THMotorsports , and you might be able to find a coupon code for a couple percent off that.

RutRut > ihm96 12/19/2018 at 18:49

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Living with well setup coilovers is totally doable. Daily with terribly setup coilovers is absolutely awful. OEM with a slight spring change takes all the setup/guess work out.

Or just bag it, but I am incredibly biased on that issue. 

Mini Guy- Now has a 4Runner > ihm96 12/19/2018 at 18:55

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Bc Racing coils offer kits in the 900 to 1,000 dollar area. I’d get some they are great

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > ihm96 12/19/2018 at 19:12

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So I’m going to straight up tell you what I tell absolutely everyone: without seeing an alignment sheet first, it’s just blind parts-slinging, period .

Whether or not people like that fact, that doesn’t change that it’s a fact. You’re saying you feel the car has too much camber, but why ? Because you’re seeing camber wear pattern? That doesn’t mean it’s camber adjustment. It means that there’s uneven wear along the camber, which could be caused by too-soft springs, excessive rebound, worn bushings, even bad caster can cause it. There’s entirely too many knobs you can turn that will make camber scrub. And on some RWD vehicles, greater wear on the inside edge of the tire is completely normal. ( I can already tell I’m just going to love setup on my 997.2 come track season. )

That said, if you’re looking for something that’s livable as a daily driver then quite bluntly, full blown coilovers are your ONLY option here. Coilovers are NOT just for racing. They’re for whatever you tune them for, and they’re going to give you the widest range of adjustments including swapping out the spring rate completely. But it is NOT a ‘plug it in and done’ setup by any stretch.

And because you’re also trying to address a possible camber issue, the question isn’t just what springs and shocks. It’s what the chassis requires to fix the alignment issue - or if there even is one . Hence, why an alignment sheet is required. We need to actually understand why you’re seeing excessive camber and what parts are actually required to fix it. Honestly it’s entirely possible that you’ve already fixed the camber simply by replacing worn parts.

So, I’d say step one is to get it up on a quick alignment rack and have them give you the numbers as it sits with no adjustments. I’d have to do some homework, but I don’t believe the Z3 has any rear adjustment at all anyway.

As for specific brands of coilovers, I’ve been pleased with Eibach, KW, and Ohlins. But only Eibach and KW are going to offer something in your price range. To get what you want out of Ohlins is $$$$$.

ihm96 > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 12/19/2018 at 19:36

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I’m saying it has too much camber partially cause I can see it visually and in the tire wear as well as I had it aligned right after putting in all those new suspension bits. I can upload the sheet later.

KW is what I’ve been considering for coilovers as they go for like 1300 and I’ve been told they’re good

And yeah the z3 has no rear adjustments really but you can get kmac adjustable bushings or weld in kits which I’ll need to do if I stay low with coilovers. For the front there’s a couple companies that sell adjustable camber plates. 

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > ihm96 12/19/2018 at 19:55

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100% agree with rootwyrm

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > ihm96 12/19/2018 at 20:00

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Good man. Do not ask how many idiots think they can just “eyeball” new tie-rod ends with a paint marker and channel locks. Given the springs are likely -1" or greater, camber wouldn’t surprise me, but a quick five minute Googling tells me I also wanna see your toe.

Also, it’s obligatory that I just go completely fucking off on BMW for this bullshit. Because that’s what it is - bullshit. This is a sports car with a $38,000 MSRP and it has less rear adjustment than a fucking $12 , 000 econobox. From the same exact model year. No, I’m NOT joking or exaggerating in the LEAST. No fucking camber, fine, but not even TOE?! That’s just completely goddamn unacceptable.

Which then makes the question: “well, exactly how fucked is it?” If you need to go from -1.8 to +0.5, a modification that gets you +-1 is worthless. It gets you closer, but not close enough. Remember that ‘increased adjustment’ is actually range from zero . On a non-adjustable setup, that means it’s range from where you’re at now. So a -1.8 with +-1 eccentrics gets you -2.8 to +0.8 not -1.0 to +1.0. That’s why you gotta look at the alignment sheet.

Given the general characteristics of the Z3, my inclination is a lot of screaming, yelling, pointing out that German engineers are often complete fucking idiots, throw the whole goddamn rear setup in the bin, and design a whole new sub-assembly.

No, that definitely won’t fit your budget. That doesn’t fit my budget, and I’d be spending somebody else’s money.

I have a feeling at the end of the day what you’re going to end up with here is very close to stock ride height and either trading off a fair chunk of ride quality or handling just to work around BMW’s idiocy. (Seriously, BMW, WHAT THE FUCK. Ultimate driving machine my ass .)

As far as the KMAC parts go, I really don’t know anything about them. However, the guys at ECS really know their shit and they seem to like ‘em, so that’s good enough for me. ;)

ihm96 > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 12/19/2018 at 20:06

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Haha I’m very aware of the idiocy of bmws engineers with this car, I had the subframe tear on me. I think part of the reason the rear is so old school is that it’s basically an E30 in the back.

I’ll have to upload the alignment sheet tomorrow when I get a chance for you to see. I’m replacing the wheel hubs as well soon. My car pushes slightly right which the tech said was due to the camber being off and he couldn’t fix it with the alignment although the suspension overall does feel much better with all the new parts. I’m almost at 160k so it’s definitely something that was needed. I don’t need to go super low, this car just already had the lowering springs when I bought it. I think my plan may be buy the KWs and just use them at the highest height setting.

Redesigning the rear would be cool but would be a waste of money I don’t have lol

gettingoldercarguy > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 12/19/2018 at 20:10

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I disagree with the statement about Ohlins . Their road and track setup is fantastic and one of the best values out in the cheaper coilover world. Also, most Bilstein can be revalved to get the damping curves you desire without going to a coilover setup. Corner balancing is a real bitch however.

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > ihm96 12/19/2018 at 20:15

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This is honestly my first exposure to not-truly-insane BMW (look, if you’re going to buy a truly old German shitbox, may as well get one with an engine straight out of a Mary Shelley novel.) And holy shit am I glad I thought the \66/ was a better idea than the Z3 because convertible. I hate this even more than the asshole who removed the dipstick from the 9A1 engine.

But definitely upload that sheet... camber can push right, but there are so many possible causes, especially after such huge changes? I just immediately roll my eyes at anyone who says “it’s this and nothing but this” and tell them to get the hell o ut of my way. ESPECIALLY if you’ve got a known wheel bearing problem. Doubly so if the rear structure already tore.

Maybe it needs some reinforcement... and while we’re in there, I mean, tube steel is pretty cheap so may as well just do a whole cage. And if we’re gonna do a cage, we can probably get a bulk discount if we order enough to turn the rear into a tube frame. And I bet there’s a couple IRS Mustangs at the local boneyard. So I mean, may as well, right? Right? ;)

AestheticsInMotion > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 12/19/2018 at 20:39

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The NA Miata. Fully adjustable front and rear from the factory. Also LSD ;) 

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > gettingoldercarguy 12/19/2018 at 20:41

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Oh, don’t get me wrong, Ohlins R&T is an amazing value for the money. Absolutely I am not going to say or even imply otherwise. Those things are amazing. The problem is that in this particular scenario where deviation from the out-of-the-box experience is likely? They suddenly get painfully expensive. If you are absolutely certain you need nothing other than ‘bolt it up,’ Ohlins R&T is the easiest answer .

But as soon as you get away from that? I’m an Ohlins customer. Do not ask me how much TTXes cost, because you’ll give me an anxiety attack. Seriously. I have a client that says “cost is no object,” actually means it, and Ohlins is very good at escalating to the “cost is now an issue” point. They make Penske look bargain basement .

I certainly don’t have any objections to Bilstein per se, but I do object to their typical cost and tendency to have bad defaults for the US market. Partly opinion obviously, but I just feel like what you get out of a Bilstein is often overpriced. For the ‘02 Z3, Koni 8040 1217 adjustables are $108 vs B8 24-023863 non-adjustable at $112 each . By the time you get through a permanent re-valve of the B8's, you probably would’ve saved money with a KW setup.

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > AestheticsInMotion 12/19/2018 at 20:44

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Pfft... ‘95 Ford Escort with selections from the 323 suspension.

Fully adjustable caster, camber, and toe on both axles. And doesn’t require drugs to justify the pricetag.

gettingoldercarguy > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 12/19/2018 at 21:24

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One distinct advantage of the Ohlins vs kw is their ability to be revalved. KW is notoriously obstinate about revalving their setups. You have to go to one of the higher priced Motorsports options for that. In that regard the road and track setup is superior. They’ll get you where you’re going 99% of the time. TTX is fantastic, but pricey and in most cases, unnecessary.  https://performanceshock.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=65_112_237&zenid=1b82d4370b086496fe331c4419d80717

Bilsteins have the advantage of keeping a stock looking setup for ease of maintenance. https ://deltavee.net/shop/services/bilstein-custom-revalve-service-copy/ are in your neck of the woods and do a great job.

Konis are flat out garbage compared to bilsteins imho. Adjustable, but you have to fully extend the shock/strut.

ihm96 > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 12/19/2018 at 21:28

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New wheel hubs and bearings just arrived for the front actually too. I wouldn’t have gotten a convertible Z3 but the coupes are just so cool that it’s worth it.

The rear was reinforced when it was welded back up too

ihm96 > gettingoldercarguy 12/20/2018 at 09:02

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Unfortunately Ohlins doesn’t make a coilover kit for the Z3 unless you go to the line that costs upward of 6k which is almost as much as I bought the car for haha

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > gettingoldercarguy 12/20/2018 at 09:59

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Have you had the Ohlins R&T setup on any of your cars?

Considering it vs. replacing with OEM EDC system in my M3. 

gettingoldercarguy > ihm96 12/20/2018 at 12:45

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Ah that's too bad.  KW seems to have a really good following.  I think they can speed the v3 to clubsport valving if your need them to.  If that kills the budget the st lineup uses their valving and is much easier on the wallet.

gettingoldercarguy > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 12/20/2018 at 12:46

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Yes, I have it on my wrx along with a lot of other bits for correcting the geometry.

ihm96 > gettingoldercarguy 12/20/2018 at 13:46

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I think I may go with the street KW V1s. The issue with the budget is I not only neeed to pay for the coils but also for camber plates in the front which will run a couple hundred and either KMAC bushings or a weld in kit that would cost god knows how much

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > gettingoldercarguy 12/20/2018 at 13:50

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And you’d choose it again, I assume? Just trying to figure out if it’s worth choosing over  the OEM adjustable system and for the extra cost.

gettingoldercarguy > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 12/20/2018 at 14:28

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I would, but my wrx didn't have the electronic adjustable suspension that you have.  I'd be curious what people on the m3 forums say.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > gettingoldercarguy 12/20/2018 at 15:37

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Oh, I’ve been doing LOTS of reading. Haha...